From Marketing Mess to Branding Success

Marketing isn’t just what’s on your business card or website. Real marketing is how you show up day after day for your clients.

Scott shares details from the myriad of experiences that he has had over the years with his real estate agent that has turned him into a raving fan.

He contrasts these experiences with an experience that he’s currently having with interior designer that has left him beyond frustrated.

Podcast Audio Timestamps:

2:08 – The unique challenge facing real estate agents today

3:15- What marketing really is

5:55- What really sets professionals apart

9:30 – The true definition of marketing (it’s not your brochures or website)

11:34 – What makes Scott’s real estate agent so well

13:15- Be thoughtful about the size of your business

14:10- Today’s value proposition

15:11 – Your brand is your reputation and how to enhance this

17:09 – Making commitments gives you freedom

19:33- The way people win in marketing today

20:37- What Scott would do if he were getting into the real estate business today

Justin Stoddart
Welcome back to The Think Bigger Real Estate Show. Today, I have a special surprise for you. His name is Scott Miller. He’s a former Chief Marketing Officer of Franklin Covey, ladies and gentle, it’s gonna be a fantastic episode, let me tell you what we’re going to cover: We’re going to talk about taking your marketing message and turning it into branding success.

Justin Stoddart
Okay, so before I do that, let me remind you that inside of the Think Bigger Real Estate Group on Facebook, we go deeper on these topics. Rather than just listening, you’re going to become part of the conversation. We’re going to engage with you and we’re going to help you take your marketing to the next level. Back to today’s guests. Scott Miller, such a pleasure to have you here. Thanks for being here, my friend.

Scott Miller
Justin, man, thanks for the platform. I love your energy. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

Justin Stoddart
Good. Well, I tell you what, I felt your energy from the second you got on. Super fun to be around people that operate at that level. So obviously, you you have a really cool background and the sense that you were the youngest licensed real estate agent in Central Florida. many moons ago. I don’t want to date

Scott Miller
Thirty-something years ago, yeah. So you you understand both the opportunity, as well as challenge of being a real estate agent. When there are tons of marketing opportunities. You then obviously scaled kind of in a different direction became the chairman, the Chief Marketing Officer of Franklin Covey. Right and, and now you serve that organization continued writing books. You run their podcast, tell us the name of your podcast.

Scott Miller
Yeah, it’s called On Leadership with Scott Miller. It is the world’s largest weekly leadership podcast, it hits about 8 million each week around the world with like you I interview, you know, celebrities, thought leaders, book authors, CEOs, different guests every week. And it’s been a phenomenal learning experience for me as I imagined your podcast has been for you and your listeners as well.

Justin Stoddart
Yeah. Well, for those that are listening right now on leadership, go find that podcast. I’m sure it’s fantastic. I can’t wait to get in, actually dig into it myself. Scott, let’s talk a little bit about this, again, unique challenge of being a real estate agent in today’s market. And I’ll kind of parlay in here a couple unique variables is that probably back when you were a real estate agent, you didn’t have massive tech portals, who were really good at getting and keeping the attention of the consumers in general, right. Today, you’ve got this publicly traded billion dollar valued companies like Zillow and Redfin, who are who have created beautiful technology, and massive, you know, attractive magnets for people to come in. And then those companies either capture the lead and or sell the lead. And so real estate agents are forced to compete with that, and or just reduce their margin to get business from those portals. So I guess my question to you is, what what do you perceive as some of the the kind of unique challenges of being a real estate agent? And or how would you go about if you are going back into the real estate industry? What would you do from a marketing and branding standpoint, to move from mess to success?

Scott Miller
Well, first, simply, I would remember the following. Every company is now a technology company. I don’t care if you’re a realtor, I don’t care if you own an ice cream shop, I don’t care if you’re Pfizer, every company is a technology company. And perhaps more importantly, every company is in the same business. They’re in the people business. They’re in the relationship business. So relationships are everything. And that sounds like a bit of a cliche, but I mean, it says true in 2021, as it was 20, 30, 50 years ago, is that your key? Your key contribution is the mutually beneficial high trust relationships you have with your sellers, your buyers, your former sellers, your former buyers, who will be your former future buyers and sellers. So it’s all about developing relationships that are mutually beneficial. How do you do that? You become a great listener, you deeply intimately understand the circumstance, that your client is in their exact circumstance. And you don’t try to be all things to all people, right. You can’t boil the ocean, you’ve got to have what Seth Godin calls, you know, your smallest viable market, you’re going to have an expertise and you need to leverage that. But I would argue first that if you want to build a brand, if you reputation if you want to build your business and have your marketing be phenomenal, it all comes down to the relationships you’re developing and how are you perceived and at the end of the day, do you make and keep commitments because, you know, I don’t know about you, but I don’t find my realtor online. In fact, every Realtor that I’ve hired in the last 10 years I’ve bought and sold seven, I’ve had seven transactions, not a bad client. And I’ve had two agents one in Park City, one in Salt Lake and it’s all about how they served me, I would even think about having a different agent or going it alone as well, because they served me well. They stay in touch with me. They know my circumstance, they are thoughtful enough to listen to has my circumstance changed? And those are just some good marketing principles, whether you’re a real estate agent or whether you’re a pharmacist.

Justin Stoddart
Yeah, I’d love that concept. So oftentimes, I see real estate agents laboring over how am I going to position this in my marketing, and it’s always about their awards, the initials behind their name, the homes that they’ve sold. And what I hear you saying is, it’s a different approach of like, rather than looking at yourself from the other side of the table, look at the client from your side of the table, right look at, like, what are their concerns? What are their needs? What really are they struggling with? In in that question, you’ll solve many of your marketing and branding problems is, is that what I’m hearing you say?

Scott Miller
I guess personally, right? I, the answer is yes. As you were talking, I was thinking about the roles that my different agents have played, I think the best real estate agent, I’ve been on both sides, I mean, seven transactions right in 10 years, not too shabby. As a client that I bought and sold, and I’ve been an agent pre in a previous life. At the end of the day. I honestly don’t care how great your brochure is. I don’t care I what I care about is, how do you treat me? How well do you listen? What is your service, like? Here’s a great example. Right? My agent that sold my home six months ago, you know, in, in a multimillion dollar home, we bought a home, I will buy my next home through her. Because she knows my issue. She knows my desire, she knows my personality, she knows when I’m being a bit impetuous. Or when I’m, you know, being too methodical, she invited me to a concert a few nights ago with my wife, we can’t go but she stays in touch with us. I know she’s in sales like that I’m in sales as well, too. But I know her intention, her intention is to serve me well. And when she serves me, well, she’ll make a ton of money. And she does. She’s the top agent in this zip code in Salt Lake City. But it’s really about developing the habits of listening because most of us listen with the intent to respond. Not with the intent to understand you’re listening might be thinking, Wait, this was a podcast on marketing. Yeah, marketing yourself marketing your brand. As an agent, you need to become an expert listener. And it’s kind of counterintuitive, because as salespeople we’re taught to always be in selling mode, influence mode, convincing mode. But those skills all don’t work. Well all the time. You’ve got to be able to balance How much are you listening? With? How much are you are you speaking and be able to have a real straight conversation with your, your client on the buyer side or the seller side? I mean, again, it all comes down to does your buyer and seller perceive you as being trustworthy? I bet you if you were to ask all of your listeners today, raise your hand if you’re trustworthy, every hammer goes up. The fact of the matter is, you know what, you don’t decide that you’re trustworthy. The other person decides, are you trustworthy? based on how you have made and kept commitments based on whether or not you have declared your intent and you’re in it for them or you’re in it for yourself? Most savvy buyers and sellers can tell you when you’re just trying to close a sale, I have had a very fortunate experience with great agents because they have my best interest in mind, not theirs.

Scott Miller
If it sells it sells. They don’t try to ever force a sale. That’s not right for me. And as a matter of fact, they sold and bought four properties for me, right? Because they served me well. They listened to my needs while they listened to my fears about my mortgage, my rate or my down payment or the size or expansion. And they were what separated them from others I think is they were in it for the long haul. They were in it for the long term relationship. And as a result, one sold one lead lead for transactions and one has led three for me that’s a good client to have, you know, unlike my interior designer, who I will fire in the next three weeks, because I never hear from them. They never call me I have to chase them. They know they they don’t care about me. And I will be firing my interior designer who I spent high six figures with because they’re the opposite of what my agents have done.

Justin Stoddart
What I hear you saying is that we probably spend too much time working on our brochures, working on how we maybe appear in the virtual world, and maybe too little time listening to our customers and being the branding, being the marketing, that the way that we serve our clients is the real marketing. It’s not what you say online. It’s not what you how you position your headshot and your website. But it’s about where the rubber meets the road is how do you take care of relationships.

Scott Miller
A-men? I don’t care that Sotheby’s is connected to the Dubai times and the Wall Street I, get it, whatever, whatever I get it all the impressions at the end of the day, what is your network like? How are you building relationships? Can I tell you, the last four transactions were all from someone my agent knew, either she had a great relationship with another broker in the same agency. It was all people they knew. None of it was from the LA Times or The New York Times The Wall Street Journal or this site and all that that’s I get it. But you know what, no one flew in from Dubai and bought my home. It was someone two cities over right. And the home that I bought, I bought a home two streets over. And because my agent knew the owner, isn’t the case in every market, I know. But I do believe that’s what’s more important than anything else. You’re doing your algorithms, your volume, is the relationships in your service. Because you know what I will be recommending Liz Slager to anybody who wants to buy a home or sell a home in Salt Lake City, because she’s done us right.

Justin Stoddart
Sounds like I need to have Liz on the show, please.

Scott Miller
It’s more it’s more than that. You know, get Yes. I need a great brochure. Yes. I need Twilight photography. Yes. I need to be on Zillow. Yes, I need to be in the Wall Street Journal. Yes, yes, yes. But all that, quite frankly, nobody. That’s how I have sold or bought any of my last seven transactions.

Justin Stoddart
And again, the the tactical of that, is that Liz asked good questions, listens, perceives what may be needed. And then has built a powerful network not she doesn’t just do that with you. She does it with other homeowners. She does it with other brokers, she does it with other lenders, to where when you need something, she’s already pre established those relationships to where now that trust is transferred. Right?

Scott Miller
Absolutely. Right. She walks me through right, Scott, I think got to use, you know, this photography course with this with Sotheby’s for example, that I think they have to use her own analysis and, and what she would just give you recommendations on mortgage brokers and lenders and rate and this and that. And she, yeah, and we By the way, we have nothing in common. We’re from a different generation. You know, we have very different backgrounds. It doesn’t like you, we clicked interpersonally. She’s lovely, but we’re not best friends. I just learned I grew to trust her. Because she had my wife’s in my best interest at heart, she paid the price to learn our boys and our boys needs and their ages and their desires. And it was it all came down to relationships. Accessibility, okay, something else is, you know, when an agent comes in and tells me they have 17 listings, I think, yeah, you don’t need 18 you don’t need 18 listings. And not a lot of I think agents think about volume. I know you got to have listings to get clients, I understand it’s a numbers game at some point. But you know what, it’s why I’m firing my my interior designer, because he has too many clients. And he hasn’t returned my phone call. And you know, when I buy my next home, in Park City, he won’t be the designer, because he’s got too many clients.

Scott Miller
And so I do think with agents, you should be very thoughtful about the size of your business. Because the more clients you have, the less you can be attentive to your clients. And I would rather have one sale with me or for sales with me over the next five years. Because I think what happens, Justin, if people try to boil the ocean, right, they think about their total addressable market, when I think you ought to be thinking about your smallest viable market. Who is what is the fewest number of clients I can have, can meet my goals, to crush it with them, and earn their return business and earn their most valuable gift they can give me, which is their reputation is that when someone says sell their home, they say, Oh my gosh, you got to call this like, I mean, that’s what you’re doing. You’re not just selling my home, you’re selling my five friends homes that are going to come up and ask, you know, Scott Miller, who should I use?

Justin Stoddart
When you you speak about something that I’m really passionate about? Scott, which is this concept of a value proposition? Is it it used to be, I feel like heavy on the personal relationship side, right? where people would lead with that, if you’re my friend, you’re going to get my business. And I feel like people have woken up to the fact that there’s a lot of options now. And the fact that when it comes to somebody’s wealth, the home is a big part of that for most people a really big part of that’s going and for you to choose simply based on who you like, as opposed to who brings you real value. Now, I’m not saying that personal relationship doesn’t also play it right. You’ve now built a personal relationship with lists but it started off with high business value of actually making a difference in your transaction in your life, from a business standpoint, right actually being different and better matters. And it’s not just about being friendly. Yes, the friendly and then the relationship develops over time. But it began with like, raw value, right?

Scott Miller
Yeah, it’s the difference between, you know, competence and character, you have to have both, you can be my friend. But if you don’t have the competence, to maximize my value to quote you, which is right in my, you know, my biggest area of my network, which is my home, then I’m not going to go with you. You know, I mean, I mentioned Liz, and I didn’t come on today think I even mentioned her name, but just happened. And I’m happy to throw some props. But, you know, Liz brought both character and competence, she bought relationships that weren’t just cocktail party relationships, she’s paid the price to know who’s in transition, who’s downsizing, who’s moving in, who’s moving out what’s happening. And she’s like, basically running, you know, Salt Lake City as a chess board. Because she knows who’s going where. And she knows when to keep confidences, and when to disclose and when to share. And when not, she’s trust worthy, because she has behaved herself into that reputation with me. I don’t think she’s, I don’t know that she’s the smartest. I don’t know that she’s the kindest, I don’t know that she’s maybe she is I don’t know that she’s the best at math in her head. But what she does is she makes and keeps commitments. And this is, you know, this is marketing the old fashioned way. I mean, I was the Chief Marketing Officer of a global public company, I can talk about SEO, marketing, automation, Google Analytics, take me there, I’m happy to talk about it. At the end of the day, I don’t care what business you’re in your brand is your reputation. And your reputation is merely a collection of all the decisions you make. Your reputation is simply commitments made, and kept, or commitments made, and not kept, or no commitments made. And therefore no commitments kept. And I think it’s important, as a real estate professional, you’d be very judicious about what commitments you make. And when you do you make sure you keep them.

Justin Stoddart
I had an epiphany that really goes down this this path recently. Interesting that I believe our society’s kind of moved in a direction where the less commitments, the better, right, whether it be from a career standpoint, whether it be from a real estate standpoint, whether it be from a relationship standpoint, it’s perceived that the fewer that commitments, the more free you are, and therefore the more free you are, the more happy you are, yes, I look back at my life, and every area of my life, right? body, mind, heart, spirit enterprise, all those areas, I only found success. And ultimately, I’m on the path to significance in each of those areas. Because I made a commitment. Right now I’m doing what’s called the 75 hard program, which is a physical fitness really a mental fitness program. And it’s freaking hard. And it’s a commitment and I pushed it off, push it off, had friends say you should do it, you should do it. And I am so much happier and so much more free from my sugar addiction than ever before, because I made a commitment. And I love what you said there Scott is it it’s really comes down to making and keeping commitments, the end of the day, that’s our reputation is built. That’s what marketing branding is all about. That’s how relationships are.

Scott Miller
It’s true. And you kind of have to wrap that around. It’s also just your customer service. I mean, at the end of the day, you can have a five page brochure, the biggest Twitter account in Dallas. But if you’re not checking in on me proactively, if you’re not thanking me for my business, if you’re not keeping me updated, you’re not doing your job. You know, it’s it’s more, it’s also more than just knowing my circumstance, it’s more than making and keeping commitments. It’s thinking about me, right? It’s if you have too many clients, you’re not thinking about me. Yeah. And I do. I think it’s a risk that agents get in, they get in this volume game. You know, I’m good friends with Jay papasan. from, you know, Keller Williams, he co wrote the one thing and so I know the business fairly well. I’ve been on his podcast, he’s been on mine and Gary Keller, and I think they are just fiercely focused on, you know, the relationships with their customers and and i don’t advocate them over another agency or such. But that’s the differentiator, right is, does your customer feel like you care about them more than you do your, you know, your commission.

Justin Stoddart
I do believe that this big text of Jay has been a guest on here as well. I love Jays, somebody I’ve learned a ton from and I don’t know if he did. I don’t know if he and I spoke about this. But I do know that. Again, because of the big tech platforms that I discussed. There has been a movement to where either agents are doing it to try and compete at that level. Or maybe it’s an ego thing. Or maybe it’s because they’re buying leads. In these organizations, they just it turns into a volume game, right? Simply from a moral standpoint, but I agree with you is that it at the core transactional agents, as soon as they turn off the flow of leads, there’s no stickiness, they’d have no business, the business is completely contingent upon them continuing to put money into that machine in order for the business to continue, because there’s no relationship equity that’s been built. Whereas Liz, for example, she’s she’s built up this equity, that now she has a she has a business, it’s not just the machine that can turn on and off so quickly.

Scott Miller
If I was going in to the real estate business, I would not earn $50,000 on the process you just described, I spent $50,000 on 50 dinner parties, where I invited people over and develop relationships got them to know got got got to know them, they got to know me, I would be building a big network of not being like a schmoozer networker, just like inviting you into my home with different couples and having a drink and having fun and learning about you and your needs. And, and you you would have to discover that I was an agent, you would have to uncover it. And you likely would. But I would be very subtle. And just and when you would learn to like me, you would hopefully hear the words that I used. And you would check me out. And people would say, yeah, Scott will serve you well, he will maximize your investment. He will meet the needs that you have. And he will put you first. I’ll have more leads in 90 days than anybody paying to buy them from Zillow or Redfin, I guarantee you.

Justin Stoddart
Well, the interesting thing is, if you look at, I’ve got some friends that are in the lead conversion business. And they said, here’s the truth is that you buy 100 leads, three to four of them that will convert Yeah, and you’re contacting them 60 times, which means you’re contacting probably, at least half of them that many times right to find that down. And if if what you just said, if you would simply take your efforts and your resources and move them towards higher value, fewer conversations. That’s why I think, I think for many agents, they would find more gratification, they’d find a more sustainable business. And they’d find the fact that their margins are better as well, right?

Scott Miller
Some people might think I’m an idiot, you just repeated what I said. And I’m telling you, I think it’s a principle. I think it’s a relationship principle that when you treat me well, I will evangelize you non stop, and I got a pretty big social media. You’ve heard me mentioned my real estate agents name three times in this program. You have not heard me mention the name of my interior designer. Hey, I don’t trash people. But I will not be recommending that person. I have recommended Liz slager. Now four times on your program.

Justin Stoddart
And I look forward to highlighting her on this program.

Scott Miller
My point is right, you haven’t mentioned me talk about the name of my interior designer, because I don’t trash talk people. But I will be terminating him, and he will not be decorating my next four homes, and I will not be recommending him. And by the way, this person is talented. There’s no question. This person has talent. I just wish he would call me in the last three months.

Justin Stoddart
It’s simply a business model. But he’s subscribed to a philosophy that

Scott Miller
It’s not sustainable long term. Yeah. You know, I know people. Now like I know people that can whack you. I just I know people that could hire you. And they’re not going to because I’m not going to recommend you.

Justin Stoddart
Yeah, yeah. Scott, this has been such a such a fun conversation. I really, really have enjoyed learning from you. I want to move to our final question, which is what I consider the signature question of the show. See, I believe that think bigger real estate doesn’t mean build a bigger, higher volume business. It really kind of lives what we’re talking about here, but it helps people actually to think bigger than real estate, to see it as a vehicle to serve people to live not just a good life, but a great life not just have success, but significance. And to me, that’s all about growth, right? Growing, not only ourselves, but growing a relationship that are valued other people. I’d love to hear what the Scott Miller do, to continue to be a Big Thinker to be somebody who’s continually expanding his possibilities. Yeah. Pursuing not just success, but also significance. What does it look like for you?

Scott Miller
Probably three things. One is I’m insatiably curious, I read three papers a day still in print. I subscribe and read 42 magazines a week in print. I read at least a book a week. So I’m insatiably curious, challenging my paradigms and learning nonstop, right, what’s hot, what’s not, who’s up who’s down? And so I read a ton. Secondly, is I have pretty good self awareness. Now usually people say that it means they don’t but I really pride myself in making it safe to tell me the truth about me what it’s like to have me on your podcast, what it’s like to interview me what it’s like to go there with me. I I’m a fairly self aware person because I crave feedback. And I make it safe for others to tell me their truth about me. Sometimes it stings. Sometimes it hurts. Sometimes it’s validating, but my self awareness is what allows me to pivot and change and to become emotionally agile. And then thirdly, I friend up. And this is a phrase that sometimes people confuse, as I like to associate with people that are smarter, more cultured, more educated, wealthier, have more bankruptcies have tried more things, because that’s where I learned. That doesn’t mean that I don’t help other people doesn’t mean that I don’t have people in my life that can do things for me. Of course, it goes both ways, right? There’s no such thing as trending down. And you know, I have lots of friends that could do nothing for me. But when I pick friends, it’s usually people I can learn from, oftentimes because they’re more successful. But in some cases, it may have been they had bigger mistakes, because that’s where I learned, I don’t learn from people’s successes. I learned from their messes, because I just didn’t, I’m not as handsome as you, I don’t speak like you. I don’t have your vocabulary. I’m not, I can’t replicate your successes. I’m not you. But what I can do is I can learn from your mistakes and avoid them. And my whole life has been sort of three steps forward, two steps back. Imagine if I could take that three steps forward one step back and avoid some of the mistakes that you’ve made in your life. And I can do kind of walk around that metaphorical pothole. So I those are three things that have been hallmarks to my whole life. And I hope we’ll be the rest as well insatiably curious, self aware, and I friend up.

Justin Stoddart
Scott, I want to thank you, one for being who you are, and being willing to share that. That’s a great gift to to all of us. Thank you, sir. I look forward to continue to collaborate, stay in contact. It’s been a total pleasure. I hope to to continue to earn that opportunity.

Scott Miller
If need a real estate agent. I got one for you in Salt Lake. Need an interior designer? You’re on your own?

Justin Stoddart
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. My final request here if everybody listening today, again, with great gratitude to Scott for all that he’s taught us, are these three simple words and they are go think bigger, Scott, appreciate helping us do that today, my friend.

Justin Stoddart
I want to thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Think Bigger Real Estate Show. If you found value here, I asked three things. Number one, give us a review. Number two, go to Facebook and in groups search, Think Bigger Real Estate and apply to join. Here you will find a community of big thinking professionals that will help you grow your income, your independence and your impact. And my third request is Go Think Bigger!