Referral Expert | Bill Cates

FULL AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION:

Justin Stoddart 0:01
So the big question is this. How do we those of us in the real estate industry with crazy amounts of ambition? How do we think bigger than the building of our own empires? How do we simultaneously see success and significance, income and impact? My name is Justin Stoddart. And this is the Think bigger real estate show. I’m yet to meet a professional that does not welcome the idea of getting more warm referrals. The only challenge is, how do we do it? Today’s guest is one of the four most referral experts in the country in the world, and he deals directly with financial service professionals, even real estate professionals. I’m thrilled to introduce him to you here in just a minute. Stay tuned, folks, we have a special episode for you today.

All right, welcome back to the Think bigger real estate Show. I’m your host, Justin Stoddart, thrilled to be with you today to bring someone who I have met, and I have deep deep admiration for for the past almost 30 years, he’s been writing, speaking, training, consulting both small businesses as well as large corporations that on some of the biggest stages. His name is Bill Cates. It’s a great pleasure to have you with us here today. Bill. Thanks for joining us.

Bill Cates 1:21
Hey, great to be here. And in case anybody misheard you, it’s Bill Cates with the C, NOT gates with the G. Bill Gates has a lot of money. I’m going to help you make more money by finding more people to serve. I

Justin Stoddart 1:35
love it. I love it, just in case those that aren’t here to see it for themselves. Yes, Bill Gates with a see, you know, I’ve got to have your six books in my hands, the on referrals, radical relevance, absolutely enjoyed getting to know your mind. And I thought to myself, boy, we must be brothers from another mother. Because the way that we think about referrals is very, very similar. And I’m thrilled to have this audience hear it from someone who’s been doing it far longer than I have really a true expert. Bill, talk to us a little bit about, about this, this concept of referrals, right? We have an endless stream of people wanting to solicit or help us to solicit leads, right? leads here leads there. And that’s not teach necessarily, right. You teach really how to get referrals. Tell us why is that? Why have you really taken your career and said, Sure, you can go get leads all day long, people will be selling them to you. But I prefer to teach you how to get referrals. What. Why is that?

Bill Cates 2:28
Well, mostly, it’s because it’s how most people want to meet you. It doesn’t mean that leads can’t work from time to time, they kind of work by default, because whoever that person is just hasn’t met someone else they feel they can trust through a referral introduction process. So generally speaking, I think we want to orient orient our business and attract clients the way they’d prefer to meet us. It’s their path of least resistance, it’s our path of least resistance. And of course, everything gets better when you’re working from referrals that you know higher level of, of win ratio, and people are more likely to follow your recommendations because their friend followed your recommendations. And in most businesses, and I even think in real estate, if you’re not careful leads can be a recipe to kind of mediocrity in the business, you can sustain perhaps a certain level of success. But it’s usually difficult to get to the level that you want, just through lead programs. Generally speaking, there’s always exceptions. But that’s the borrowed trust of referral that makes things work easier.

Justin Stoddart 3:31
Well, I love that the borrowed trust of a referral, oftentimes say something similar is that you can spend, you know, weeks months years developing trust with somebody which absolutely can work if you’re diligent, or you can simply borrow the trust of somebody else, someone else who already has it, their endorsement transfers that trust from that professional to you. And in a matter of minutes, in a matter of seconds. You’ve earned what otherwise may have taken you years.

Bill Cates 3:55
Yeah, and I would say that it’s usually enough to open the door, it’s usually enough to get the foot in the door, if you will. Sometimes it’s enough to win the new business to get the listing or or, you know, to get the buyer. Not always though sometimes that bar trust will take you a certain point and then you have to herd your own trust after that. Definitely. That’s where my book radical relevance kind of comes in. It’s the now that we got the referral, the introduction, how do we talk about our value that’s going to truly win the new business. So it depends a little bit on on the trust that exists there and how the credibility of the referral source and how likely that prospect is going to follow their recommendations. But it definitely gets on someone’s radar.

Justin Stoddart 4:36
You mentioned this concept of getting that transfer of trust. I oftentimes teach people that that if you show up like a solicitor you will get treated like a solicitor right. There’s shouldn’t be a total disconnect for anybody. Right. When someone approaches us soliciting something, the immediate response, the knee jerk reaction is defense mode, right? We’re being solicited and you step back whereas when someone opens a door for us when you walk through a different door, it’s a totally different experience from day one, right. And as I think you mentioned just a minute ago is it sometimes it’s hard to recover when you’re seeing through the frame of this as a solicitor to get them to, to have full trust and to respect you as a peer mentor leader? That just takes a long time. And so I believe that referrals, part of why probably both you and I really endorsed them is that it actually speeds up the conversion process, right? It lowers the cost of having to spend so much time trying to convince people to trust you.

Bill Cates 5:29
Oh, yeah. So most efficient, most cost effective, you know, people spend all this money on marketing. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t do some of that and create name awareness for yourself that can help do right, because if you get introduced, and they say, Oh, I think I’ve heard of, or I’ve heard of them, that helps nothing wrong with that, you know, but but the key is getting, I would say not just referred but introduced is is these days, while we use the word referrals a lot. I think when you’re with a client with a prospect, anyone who has the ability to, you know, the upstream folks that we’re going to talk about, I know that’s part of your, your language, it’s important that that you use the word introductions, let’s talk about how you introduce me to your sister to your brother to this person. So well, you know, we’ll get into that as we talk. But it’s not just referral, its introduction,

Justin Stoddart 6:15
you know, you talk to Bill and your book about our right fit clients. Real estate agents have a tendency, especially when a market starts to tighten, I would say, like professionals in general, have a tendency that when a market starts to flatten or even Titan to get a little scarcity mentality of I need to take any client that I can, right. And kashflow would require that of us to some degree yet. I think probably you and I would both argue that sometimes when we don’t actually know who is our right fit client, we tend to end up actually slowing ourselves down as opposed to speeding ourselves up. Would you agree with that? Yeah,

Bill Cates 6:48
we can no question. You know, when usually when you get started in any business, you you know, their breathing, you’ll talk to them, essentially. First of all, you got to practice anyway. And, and, and you need the money, that’s fine. You don’t want to be living off your credit cards the rest of your life. And eventually you get to a level of success, where there is a right fit, and it could be demographic and it could be psychographic. So from you know, commercial, I’m sorry, residential, real estate, you know, quite often it is the neighborhood is the geographic area. That’s part of it. Sometimes it could be the you know, the pricing of the housing, the neighborhoods that you tend to work with, there’s demographic and their psychographic to people who, you know, they’re not shopping for the discounted, you know, real estate agent, if you will, you know, there’s so many different options out there. It’s kind of confusing. And I wanted to mention, you talked about solicitor, yeah, you certainly don’t want to show up as a solicitor you want to show up as an educator, if you if you show up as a teacher, and you teach people how to stage their house to get their house ready to sell, or it’s just the Think about how they’re going to start looking and buying then and you teach them how the business works. And maybe what’s changed over the last month or a year or decade since they were at that game before then that’s usually what what wins the business is because they see you as someone who’s knowledge knowledgeable, you’re there to serve to help. And they like doing business with you. Just as a quick aside, I’m taking you know, personal fitness classes these days, and the gal is teaching me husband just started a mosquito spraying franchise totally different world than what we’re in now. But last year, he struggled a little bit, I had him buy me dinner, and we just sat down I coached a little bit. I said just show up as a teacher show up as an educator show up. As you know, this is how mosquitoes live and breathe. And this is where how you want to grade your yard and did it and he is gangbusters this year, he’s already hard three other people to do all the spraying. He didn’t have to do it anymore, just by shifting from trying to win the business to educate someone on how to be involved in the business with him. And it’s made a huge difference. And that’s the way we want to go.

Justin Stoddart 9:03
Does that mean you’re saying how simply stepping out of a role of I’m here to get something from you, right, which is oftentimes how we’re taught to market like I’m never too busy to get something from you. And we move away from that. And we move to a role of here’s what I can give you right here’s what I know that you need to know all of a sudden the walls of you’re coming at me to get something go down and people begin to open up and they begin to listen they begin to trust right I love it. Yeah, let

Bill Cates 9:33
me add something to that though because I’m not saying you don’t remove yourself from the the attempt if it’s a good match to win the business you just don’t start with that you know shuffle that you don’t say hey, I’m here to see if I can, you know do this for you just educate I’m here to help. I’m here as get now near the end at some point you do have to say, based on all I’ve learned based on the things we’ve discussed. No I think that I can do this for you In other words, you want it you do want to make a recommendation, you do want to come across with confidence, putting yourself up as that resource to serve them. You need that quote unquote ask for the business. I like it through a recommendation. I like, here’s what I recommend next. So you’re still kind of in a teaching mode, but you happen to be in that recommend important recommendation.

Justin Stoddart 10:23
Well, yeah, I mean, it’s very similar to dating, right? We would never, like show up the door meeting somebody for the first time and like, like going for the kiss, like, getting slapped. And like that would be they would be over, right? But after several dates, you’ve earned the right right. So maybe do that, right? If you feel like the recommendation of earned is necessarily right, or the or the rights necessary, the right verb, excuse me get the point, right. Like trying to take something too quickly, is going to leave you with nothing. Whereas when you give, give, give, and you identify that it is the right fit. That’s when all of a sudden it makes sense for both sides. Let’s let’s dive into some of these. Your 17 rules of relevance are absolutely awesome. Absolutely love them. One thing that you say here is the shortest route to relevance is through an introduction from a trusted source, right? We’ve really talked about that. You talked about give your clients a seat at the table, as well talk a little bit about what you mean by that. Yeah,

Bill Cates 11:14
whenever you’re working on the messaging that you’re developing for website, LinkedIn profile collateral material, how, however, you’re going to be talking about your business, maybe revisiting it after a while, talk to some of your clients talk and talk, you know, don’t just do it in a vacuum. Yeah, you have a pretty good understanding of what you need to say. And you learn a lot from talking to people who, you know, are worked with you or could potentially work with you. So I’ll give you some examples. I was doing this with one of my clients, Michael Schmidt’s out in San Mateo, California, who has since recently retired, but way back when when I was checking in with him giving him a seat at the table. He says, you know, Bill, when I talked to people about you, I tell them that Bill Gates makes asking for referrals as natural as breathing, and I go, Well, that’s pretty good. I never would have thought of saying that. And can I quote you? And he said, Sure. So I don’t just say that, that I do that. Because now it sounds like marketing hype. But when I put it into the words of my client who actually said it, then it’s it’s true. It’s real. And and now we’re talking about talking about things in the way that our clients think about it. So your your clients, your prospects, your centers of influence, they all have a window on your business, and what you do that is different than yours. And so you want to bring them in, say, Hey, here’s what I’m thinking of saying, What is your perception of how I bring value or what makes me different, and you’ll learn a lot from these people. I love that process.

Justin Stoddart 12:40
Oftentimes, I think we were blind to our own knowledge, right? We kind of speak in jargon, we have our own kind of industry language. So we tend to say a thing, and other people know what we talked about. Whereas I love your point of like, what caused you to want to work with me, what’s been your favorite thing they use their language, which is probably much more similar to the prospective customers is language that we want to be working with. Right? So I love that what a great, great concept. Let’s talk a little bit about this, you know, the concept that I teach heavily, which is the upstream model, right? You validated the fact that, again, in working for right 25 plus years with financial professionals, financial advisors, and others, that they are in conversations with their clients, the good ones, right, they’re in conversations with their clients in a consultative way. They’re not just they’re selling products, they’re really acting as advisors, truly, and consultants. And in the process of consulting and advising their clients, they’re identifying the fact that their clients are going to be making changes, moves things, just to live within real estate. Right. And because that person, that advisor has an advisory role already, they are well positioned to give a recommendation at that point. Would you agree with that as any other kind of validation? You want to add to that point?

Bill Cates 13:53
Yeah, absolutely. Anyone in your upstream, the people you want in your upstream, often called centers of influence. Influencers is lots of lots of terminology I like the upstream concept it is is they have awareness of someone who may need your service. And when I work with financial advisors, I one of the things I tell them, and I say this to real estate agents too, and many real estate agents agents are quite good at this is have this this inventory of other resources out there that you know, right financial advisors, for instance, should know real estate agents, mortgage brokers, bankers, you know, debt consolidators, you know, all kinds of different people tangential to the work that they do. So they can serve their clients or prospective clients, not just to the direct work they do, but to the other introductions. And so yeah, if you get referred by someone’s financial advisor, that’s usually a pretty high trust relationship. Accountants CPAs are usually pretty high trust relationships as well. Attorneys quite often are very high trust relationships. between the client and the attorney, a lot of us don’t necessarily trust. You know what I’m talking about. So whenever it’s a high trust relate, that’s the borrowed trust phenomenon, right? You’re borrowing that trust. And so let me give you an example of a gentleman that I’ve worked with over the years. Now, he’s not a real estate agent. He’s a mortgage broker, obviously plays in the world with real estate agents. But he brought me in for three different lunches where financial advisors were there at lunch, about 10 each, and I was kind of the value add to that lunch. And I talked to them about how they can get more referrals, introductions, etc. But it was him the mortgage broker who was bringing the value to his upstream, and real estate agents could do the same thing. And these advisors, these guys and gals, they were kind of competitors, but kind of not right, they know that the world is big enough, they don’t really care whether they’re sitting with some another advisor that might be in their area, they usually know each other anyway. So this is how we nurture that upstream, if you will, those relationships, he did it, you know, at 1010 at a time over the course of a couple of weeks.

Justin Stoddart 16:05
I love that, you know, I teach kind of the advanced sessions, right that I teach is, once you identify an upstream partner, right, that upstream partner not only needs value directly from you, but from other of your upstream partners and putting them together in a room. And I love what you said, right? It’s just, you can maximize the amount of value that bring by bringing them all together in one room. It was interesting bill as I as I did the research, meeting with financial advisors, I found that although many of them would find anywhere between 12 and 24, opportunities to refer a real estate agent in a given year, it was almost unanimous that very infrequently, were they actually referring that business to a real estate agent, there was something that real estate agents were doing in the way that they were approaching a financial advisor that was causing that financial advisor to believe that it was more liability in referring them than there was value to their clients. So I’d love to speak into the real estate industry. Why would a financial advisor hesitate to when when their client says yeah, we’re looking to sell our primary residence, sell a couple of rentals, consolidate down, buy that vacation home, buy a condo in the city like these? These conversations are happening right there advisors, whether advisor, get the advisor staying quiet on referring an agent, what’s the disconnect there? Well,

Bill Cates 17:23
they’re ultimately they’re not referral. So you know, what causes that? Well, it could be personality could be coming up too aggressive. You know, I had a real estate agent, who I worked with, with several properties over the years, and I really liked her, she was quite good. However, the only time I ever heard from her was, you know, was essentially, you know, anyone else I can help. It was like, you know, sending me a birthday card and putting business cards, her business cards in a birthday card to me, right taking a what’s meant to be personal correspondence and turning it into, you know, business correspondence. And so it could be personality could be style, it’s possible that the advisor doesn’t really know the agents process what it would look like. In other words, how would the agent respond? What you know it, there’s a disconnect there. So what an agent needs to do to court, any of these stream partners is to make sure they’re super referable, from a personality standpoint, from how from a teaching and a value added standpoint, from saying thank you and keeping the financial advisor in the loop. That’s a very important thing that you not only say thank you to that referral source, but you keep them in the loop a little bit about what’s happening, you know, you know, inundated with information, but every now and then you say, Hey, this is what’s happened, it’s moving forward. We’re meeting tomorrow, all those kinds of things. And so they trust your process, they trust you, they trust your process by the level of communication you provided. And that’s usually what it takes to become referral and, and to maintain that over time to break bread couple times a year, get just get to know each other on a more personal level from time to time really makes a huge difference.

Justin Stoddart 19:11
You know, I love that you said that mixing personal correspondence with business correspondence. It is interesting when you get something personal from somebody, and then at the end, they throw in a business that almost invalidates the fact that Oh, I get why you’re coming. I get why you’re sending this you want something from me. Right? And although that might not be the intent, it may have been very genuine we’ve been trained as an industry to always be asking and I think as you identify there is a proper time to ask right when the recommendation is is such and the clients ready and or the referral giver is in that spot. But if we’re always using any personal correspondence for to our own benefit, as opposed to a genuine reach out and care about the relationship, it does tend to, to I would say weaken, and even somewhat cheapen some of that conversation. I think that’s that’s a brilliant idea. And I love also the fact of, of really making your call Client process very visible, right. One thing that, you know, the advisors that I spoke with is that they saw it as more of a liability than an asset, right? If I, if I’m going to refer I’m concerned about that, what if they don’t do a good job and the way to, to, to overcome that right is to let them know, this is what the process looks like, one thing that I teach, is that when agents give a report back, is to say, here’s this would have been kind of the industry standard thing to do. Right? Here’s why we do that right, kind of go a deeper level. And if you vary from what maybe what the normal agent would do, be sure to identify that. So you know, here’s what kind of the average agent would do. We’ve been trained to do it this way. And here’s why. Here’s the added benefit to the client. So where there’s constantly this, here’s average agent, here’s what we do, not in a boastful way, but just in an educational, informative way. So that the client is always aware that there’s some forethought, right, it’s not just robotic, but it’s very intentional and strategic about how they’re taking care

Bill Cates 20:58
of the why behind any particular thing you may suggest or recommend. And recommend is very important. Because, again, that’s part of that teaching, right? You’re not just saying do this, you’re saying do this, here’s why. And so now the person feels like every time they’re with you, they learn something. And guess what happens if they learn something they never knew before, or something that was counterintuitive. They tell other people, or they say, you know, I just learned something from my real estate agents today that was totally took me by surprise, right? They’ll they’ll tell other people just buy that. So yeah, the why behind whatever, is always a good thing to think about. Also, if I could say, saying thank you is very important to the referral source. But as important as that is, what’s even more important is getting your new client, whether it’s a buyer or seller, to say thank you to the referral source, because it’s one thing for them the referral source to hear from you. And they appreciate that. But when when they hear from the person that they refer to now, that really confirms and emphasizes your refer ability, when that person that they know whether it’s their client or someone else. Now you become super referral because of that love that

Justin Stoddart 22:14
they can actually see that there’s value in continuing to refer you to somebody else, right? One one thought I’d love to have you really kind of helped us to see once you get in conversation, educating people about the client process, one thing that I teach is, is when you’re first approaching an advisor, right, when you’re first approaching somebody know having some background of understanding as to what their concerns might be, so you can be relevant right away, which is directly what you teach in radical relevance, right is doing your research up front. Will you help us do some of the research right now? What is it that financial advisors need? What is it that they’re looking for? What are some of their breakdowns, that a real estate agent might be able to say, you know, what, when I reach out to them, when I get introduced to that advisor, I’m going to be looking to see if this problem is real for them and see how I can solve it. Can you walk us through the mind of a financial advisor a little bit? What do they struggle with?

Bill Cates 23:07
Well, I mean, it certainly in my world, in the advisors that I ended up talking to, for the most part, they’re looking for more of the right people to talk to just like everybody else. In fact, advisors and other folks that come to me say, Bill, just help me get in front of more of the right people, that’s what I need, in the most efficient way possible. So certainly being a real resource of referrals to them is nice and welcomed, although it doesn’t necessarily necessarily have to be a reciprocal situation. But anyway, you can be a resource to them. So that’s possible. If you’ve learned anything else in terms of time management, that that’s always a big struggle for them. Because a lot of financial advisors haven’t learned to live a balanced life, I probably true for real estate agents too. And just people in general. So any any trip tics, tips and tricks you have around, saving time, you know, creating more free time, managing one’s schedule to have more time for family and hobbies and interests. That’s always a good thing. One thing that you always want to do, however, you’re meeting someone, and by the way, you know, how do you meet financial advisors? Well, you can meet him through other financial advisors, you can meet them through your clients, right? You want to meet your upstream people through referrals and introductions to promotional art. That’s the easiest, best way. And so whenever you’re meeting someone that way, you get this referral source this introducer to give you a heads up about this person, get some demographic information, some psychographics Tell me a little bit about her personality. Tell me a little bit about his, what’s important to him, his family, you know, all of that just learn about their business and about them personally. And then demonstrate that a little bit when you Send an email or get on the phone with this person you’re trying to develop a relationship with let him let them know you’ve done a little homework. And you’ve learned a little bit of people are flattered about that people appreciate that. I sometimes have fun and say, you know, if you felt like someone looking over your shoulder yesterday, I was, I was me looking at your website, you know, have a little fun. If it’s in your nature to have some fun, you want to do that as well. So the more you learn about a prospect, or the more you learn about a possible upstream partner, the better yeah, love it.

Justin Stoddart 25:30
Yeah, you’re right. And kind of our online forums give us a great kind of looking glass, through which we can see what’s happening in people’s lives. And then also what you’ve identified, which is some of the commonly held struggles that we all face as business professionals, time balance, right? mindset. Is there anything else specific, industry specific, I know some things that I uncovered, as I interviewed advisors is this need and desire to want to be at the center of all things financial, right? They really want to know when people are buying and selling real estate, they want to know if they’re buying a new $120,000 boat, they’re wanting to like this is helpful for them to be able to properly advise people keep them on plan. Would you validate that that’s that’s kind of a real if, if the agent can help help them to really be more valuable to the client so that the client trusts them with more information gives them more opportunities to console that is that fair?

Bill Cates 26:20
Yeah. And sometimes the real estate agent, well, let me put this way, sometimes, you know, the financial advisor will learn certain things about their clients, but not necessarily everything. One of the things I recommend is they make sure they visit with clients in different settings. In other words, sometimes the clients come to them, sometimes they should go to the client, the home the office, every time we meet someone in different settings, we learn more about them. And the real estate agent will also be meeting with the clients in different ways and different settings, and learn things about them. And yeah, now you got to be careful about revealing proprietary information. If you if you wonder, Should I tell George that I’ve learned this about our common client? Then talk to your client say, hey, you know, this George know this about? You know, it’s okay, if I tell them? Yeah, sure. Okay. Right. So be you know, being intelligence gatherer, if you will. And because money intersects all aspects of one’s life, anything you learn about a client money related or not related, it is ultimately related to money in some way. And the financial advisors should know about that the biggest the biggest risk that any advisor any upstream person feels by giving referrals, is it somehow going to mess up? Right? Is it somehow going to damage my relationship with that person. And so we’ve just got to make this whole thing, feel as safe and stress free as possible. And then have that good feedback, get back to that referral source, and then they beat then they, you know, they keep doing it, because they know it’s a safe thing to do.

Justin Stoddart 27:54
Make it as easy as breathing. Right?

Bill Cates 27:57
as natural as breathing. Yes, sir.

Justin Stoddart 27:59
I love that. I love that. Such great insight I can’t thank you enough for for what you’ve shared. Such a fan of your work. For those that are listening here. Their radical relevance is just one of his great books that will lead you to others. And I’ll put in the show notes, a link that Bill shared with me that will give you a toolbox kind of access to some of the additional helps to help you be radically relevant, really be able to make breathe, or I should say giving getting referrals is natural as breathing. I love that. So I have one more question for you, Bill that that I often I post everybody that crosses the Think bigger real estate stage, which is this you’re a big thinker, you’ve been helping other professionals do what what what they do better for several decades now. What is it that bill does to continue to grow? What is it that bill does to continue to expand your possibilities to continue to to be a big thinker? What does it look like for you?

Bill Cates 28:49
Yeah, and you know, we were talking about this a little bit before we got on I got into, I used to be a voracious reader. And right around when COVID hit, I stopped reading as much and I couldn’t tell you why. But now I’m back to listening. So with Audible, so I become a voracious listener, if you will. And that keeps me going. I also hang around other people who are at my level, or even past my level of success in this business, I’ve done pretty well. So there are fewer of those people, but they’re out there. And I’ve also learned from people who are new in the business that I can learn from anyone. And so I’m a member of the National Speakers Association. Yes, there is an association of professional speakers. It can imagine being a roomful of professional speakers, it’s not the national listeners Association. But, you know, learning from my colleagues and learning from other business models, is is a big thing. And I’m a good adapter and I see what other people are doing and I kind of adapt and adopt in my own world. So you know, I’m at a stage in my business where I am beginning to I can’t say slow down because I don’t think I’ll ever slow down I definitely won’t retire because I gotta keep my brain active. I’m a creator, and I love to do it and I am looking to work fewer hours. So now I’m going to my network of people that I know, and figuring out how do I still keep a nice viable business going, producing the nice income, but with very little effort from me. And so that’s kind of a new stage. But when we’re when we have these relationships with colleagues and other people out there, and some of the people who’ve done that already, then we can go to them, you know, whatever problem you encounter in your life, especially your business life, and probably personal to, you can best believe there’s other people out there that had the same problem. And they figured out the answer, at least for them, and seek those people out and learn from them. And you’ll probably come up with an answer to that problem.

Justin Stoddart 30:45
I love it, seek out mentors and coaches. Awesome. And Bill, want to thank you so much again, for all that you’ve shared with us today, just the impact that you’ve had upon the professional services industry, for going on against 30 years. It’s impressive and super impressive. And I’m sure that the wake of impact that you’ve had, you have no idea what that even looks like. It’s lots of lots of impacts. So thank you for that appreciate you ablaze in the way for people like me who want to similarly impact professionals in a really, really big way. Well, thank you again, for that. And for everybody tuning in here today. Thank you so much for tuning in my final requests of everybody listen, here they are three simple words and they are go think bigger. Phil, thanks for helping us do that today, my friend. You bet. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode that I have a very special invitation for you. I have created a private Facebook community called successful real estate agents, where the focus is going beyond success having both a successful business and a significant life. If you’re not yet a member. Go sign up now.